1. Those who are saved are saved by God.

2. To be saved by God is a choice made by God.

3. God made this choice before the creation of the world.

2. Romans 3:10-11 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
It's pretty cut and dry -  no human in his natural sinful state desires or looks for God. That would mean that, if there is salvation, God comes looking for us.

3. God is perfect and unchanging, not an anthropomorphic God who was created in our image; he is an eternal being (exists outside of the system of Time which He created).  If God is not bound by time, then when He makes a choice "in-time" in 2004, it's the same as if He made it in 1904, 4, 4000, or before time was created. This is because, to Him, there is no time.  It's just our observation of change in our realm; He's outside of it.  Don't like that answer? Here's another one to chew on:

Romans 9:11 - " (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)" This verse is talking about how God had chosen Jacob over Esau to continue the Jewish bloodline. God chose Jacob in a few different ways listed here:

1. "being not yet born" - Jacob was chosen for his purpose before
being born

2. "neither having done any good or evil" – nothing Jacob had done
would have affected/recommended him to God for any reason.

We are then told why: "that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" Many people, when I tell them God chooses before they're born say things to the effect of "that's unfair." Paul had the same thing in Romans.


9:14 - "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God
forbid." Claiming that God is unfair is claiming that God is fallible,
therefore non-perfect.  Still, it does seem a bit harsh that a loving God would willingly send billions of people to hell, does it not? The real question we should ask, though, is why a just God would send millions or billions to heaven. We all deserve hell, but He showed some of us mercy. So what is the answer to these questions?

It is a generally accepted principle (due to catechisms from multiple faiths), though I honestly do not have a full scriptural basis on this one at the moment (I'll have to look into it some more, so bear with me on this one) that man's purpose is to bring glory to God.  Anyway, assuming this to be true, then the answer to those questions is similar to this purpose. God is glorified in both sending people to heaven (Romans 9:23) AND sending people to hell (Romans 9:22).

As for Calvinists not understanding your Armenian views, I went to a nice little independent Baptist school for 13 years where I was taught, for 13 years, that Calvinism is wrong and has no Biblical basis.  I believe that for several years, but discovered through my own study of the Bible that this isn't entirely true.  I asked teachers about it and the typical reply was "I think you should make sure of your salvation."  But, yes, I do understand where you're coming from, possibly even more than you do.

Now, I want to address the last post…

Reasons against Calvinism:
1. Westboro Baptist Church
2. Abuse from Calvinists
3. Issues with the beliefs themselves

1. Forget Westboro Baptist Church.  Every Calvinist I know (and I've met quite a few) wishes those people would fall off the face of the planet because they're not what the Church is supposed to be.

2. Just because you're berated by people of a particular ideal doesn't mean the ideal is wrong.  If so, from what I said above, then Armenianism is stupid and wrong.  If there's no free will or election, then what is there?  ;)

3. As for the issues…

(a) God is sovereign to the extent that He mandates everything. 
Now, for those of you who really don't understand what that means,
according to the Calvinist, God not only created man, and created good, but He also created evil, suffering, and the whole lot.

(b) On top of that, God makes people sin.  (Yes, I'm serious.) 

(c) God can choose to save all but instead He chooses to save some and condemn those who can do nothing else to change their fate.  Before God calls those select few, those people were totally rebellious to all things good (in theory) and would never have turned to God.  Thus, the elect are basically robots, seeing as how the love I know is predicated upon choice.

(a) Let's assume that God does not know everything.  Then you make sense.  Now, I'm going to work off of the assumption that God does know everything (part of being eternal, see above) because that's what I believe is supported by scripture.  If God knows that something will happen, then it will happen, no?  Let's look especially at prophecies – God says that they're going to happen, so we'd better assume that they will.  This is God setting things in stone (as if they weren't already).  Because of his vantage point, everything about human existence is set in stone; we can not change the fate of the world because God already knows what it is.

Now, if God is omniscient, then it stands to reason that He would know of Satan's rebellion and Man's Fall.  Now let's use an analogy.  If you know that if you light a match in a room filled with natural gas that the room will explode, and, being in a room which you know is filled with natural gas, you light the match, did you destroy the room?  It is very hard to argue that you didn't as you very intentionally did.  If God knew what would happen with His reation, did He not destine/fate/elect/doom His creation to this state?  Sounds very intentional to me.  He knew what would happen, He knew what the repercussions would be, He knew exactly what He was doing.

Now, for a little physics – cold = absence of heat; darkness
= absence of light; evil = absence of good; suffering = absence of…well…non-suffering.  These opposites exist in a realm in which
they are allowed to exist.  There was no suffering until God came down after the Fall and said "Now you're gonna suffer; now you're gonna die," in effect.  I'm tired of this train of thought.  I'm moving on.

(b) Depending on how strongly one holds to Calvinism, they may or not believe that.  You are making a generalization.  Either way…

Exodus 7:3 – "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the lands of Egypt."  God controlled Pharaoh's reactions directly so that He would be more glorified (see far above).

Exodus 7:13 – "And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said."

Exodus 8:22 – "…and Pharaoh's heart was hardened…" and so on
and so forth until Pharaoh died.

Romans 9:15-23 – "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that wileth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?  For who hath resisted his will?  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?  Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why has thou made me thus?  Hath not the potter power over the
clay; of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory."  I'm not going to say anything else on this one for now.

(c) As I said before, there is the whole "none that seeketh after God" verse.  Also, we've got the nifty verse talking about how "many are called, few are chosen" and such things.

Frankly, I'm a little burned out at the moment.  I just got up about half an hour ago and still need to take a shower and such, so I'm off for now.

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