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Josh Morgan



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September 03, 2008

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Favorite Bands:, Switchfoot, Jars of Clay, PFR, Seven Day Jesus, Instruments:, Acoustic Guitar, Electric Guitar, Bass, Piano

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Webmaster Ethics and Deal or No Deal

I recently got into what could be considered a heated debate on some guy's website.  After a couple episodes of Deal Or No Deal, I decided to see if others agreed with me about proper statistical decision making as it applies to the game.  He seemed to go into great depth about what he thought, but I considered his analysis flawed, so I posted what I thought was a simple correction.  Well, apparently he didn't like that.  First he argued with me, then he posted the following:




You know what, you’re right.


I must be an idiot.


Why the **** did I put up with four years of the #3 Mechanical Engineering Institution in the country?


Why did I learn statistics and other meaningless crap when I could have just listened to your clairvoyant insights?


I don’t see why you’re wasting your time at my site if you’ve got
your finger so firmly pressed upon the pulse of success and useful
knowledge. You should be out getting rich and writing those “rich jerk”
info product spoofs.


But you don’t need me to tell you that…Right?



Anyway, I thought this rather funny and responded with a post restating my reasoning and telling him that he should be more careful about bragging about education.  He then made this guess about my own background.

In the best case scenario, you attended either a state university or
second tier specialty school (and no, there’s no way it was on par with
a
UNC or a UVA)

You received a degree in a major that covers very general topics —
something like Business Administration, Management, or Communications
(although I hope not, because you do a poor job of constructing an
argument)


You may have received a decent GPA,
but if the above bullet points are true, this really isn’t that
impressive given the difficulty of both your school and your major.

After this, I found myself suddenly unable to post on his site.  I formulated a more... formal (wordy) version of my reasoning, but it wouldn't go through even when I changed my email address.  Eventually, I had Paul post it for me.  Apparently the guy just blocked my IP address.  If you can't beat 'em, block 'em??

Anyway, I think the show is interesting, so I'll share what he thought and what I think.

He states clearly that he believes that the goal of the game is to "beat the mean".  The mean, of course, it calculated by taking the average of all the values not yet revealed.  He says that if any offer is extended that beats the current mean, then you'd "be an idiot not to take it."

My thinking is this: what really matters is what will happen as a result of your choice to settle or not.  Your offer is based on the mean, right?  Then if the mean is likely to go up, then your offer is likely to go up.  Your calculation then, should not be whether the offer is above or below the mean, but whether the next offer will be higher or lower.  The premise of my thinking, of course, is not to beat the mean but to maximize how much you take home.  Why settle for any offer if you expect the next offer to be higher?  You don't have to think about what might be in your case until the end of the game.

So let's look at an application to see how these two theories work.  Let's say there are 5 values left: $10, $200, $20,000, $100,000, and $500,000.  The mean is about $124,000.  By the other guy's logic, an offer of $130,000 should be accepted, because it is above the mean.  By my logic, you should reject this deal, because you have an 80% chance of your offer going up next time (because the mean will increase).

You can decide for yourself.  Accept the deal or reject it?  Oh, and I apologize if you've never seen the show and none of this makes any sense.  What do you guys think?  Anyway... HE TRIED TO BLOCK ME FROM HIS SITE!  It's really ridiculous.  How insecure do you have to be to block someone because you can't refute their arguments?
October 29, 2006
Isaiah Jensen said

what is the website that you were debating on? or did you intentionally leave it out?
October 29, 2006
said

I agree with your logic so far, but did he have any argument against yours?
October 30, 2006
Josh Morgan said

His counterlogic was that the goal of the game is to beat the mean, so if you can beat the mean you should do it. He said I'd be nuts not to take an offer above the mean. I told him he'd be nuts not to take an 80% chance to increase his offer. He didn't actually offer any other counters except insults. And I left out the site on purpose. I figure is more appropriate. Although if you search for Deal or No Deal strategy on google, you'll find it easily.
October 30, 2006
Bill Morgan said

Well, first, the guy is extremely insecure ... but quite honestly ... if memory service me right ... I think you both are wrong .... this is not about the mean ... now or current ... nor the expected next offer ... it is about the "expected value" ... which is the summation of each value multiplied by its probability of occurence. In this case ... that probably just so happens to be 20% each ... and the mean just so happens to equal the expected outcome of $124,042 .... at this moment ...
October 30, 2006
Sarah Yeldell said

Wow. That guy's a major prick.

Funny thing is, five years down the road, no one gives two shits what school you went to (unless it's a football rival, I guess) or what your GPA was. Experience, ability, and attitude get you the job, not how much money mommy and daddy shelled out for your education.

October 30, 2006
Elizabeth said

It appears that he also removed the comment from "Jew II" (gee, who could that be!) that pointed out that insulting someone's intelligence and education instead of actually making a viable argument is rather childish.
October 30, 2006
Josh Morgan said

In a game like this, where there is an equal chance of each value, the expected value will always equal the mean. But, the mean only tells you what you could hope to get if you opened your case right now. With the values on the board, you could hope to get $124k if took your case (in reality, that would just be the average if you took the case enough times). However, taking the case isn't an option. You aren't taking the deal or taking the case. You're taking the deal or playing another round. Therefore, the question shouldn't be "is this offer better than what's in my case" but rather "is this offer better than the offer I'll get next round" In this circumstance, the offer is above the mean/expected value, but a player has a 80% chance of that offer increasing next round. That fact is more important than what may or may not be in the case... especially since a lot of people never open their cases anyway. If you have 4 cases below the mean/expected value and 1 case above the mean/expected value, there is an 80% chance that your offer will be better on the next round. Even if you are sure your case holds a low value, you still can profit by rejecting deals until those deals are no longer likely to increase. Basing your decision only on the mean only makes sense if your only option is to take the current offer or commit to taking the case you chose at the beginning (like the last round of the game). If, however, your decision is between the current offer or a case opening and a new adjusted offer, the consideration is whether the new offer will be better or worse than the current.
October 30, 2006
Bill Morgan said

Josh ... way to go ... I didn't see your remark when I posted my blog ... we are talking the same thing. Sarah ... you are right ... after a few years, school and GPA mean zippo. As for Jew II comments/blockings ... people who take decisions based on stereo-typing race, religion, nationality, and sexual orientation have small minds. Each person is an individual. If we take this path in society ... what is the next step? Blonde women? Bald men? People shorter than 5' 8" ??? LET'S GROW UP ....
October 30, 2006
nell nestor said

Business administraton? Management? Communications? 3rd tier school? What a complete maroon!
October 31, 2006
Bill Morgan said

What's a maroon? I thought that was a moron .... ?? But what do I know, I'm just a dumb minor with an MBA from two fourth ranked schools ....
October 31, 2006
Sarah Yeldell said

Maroon = humorous pronunciation of moron

Bugs Bunny sound clip here

October 31, 2006
Josh Morgan said

How in the world did you find that sound clip?
October 31, 2006
Sarah Yeldell said

Mad google skillz.

October 31, 2006
Bill Morgan said

I remember that sound bite ... I'm such an ignoramous. Josh, your remarks are right on. What I am curious to know (and we would have to tape the show ... is ... when they make an offer ... do they really offer the mean ... of the current round (or the next round) ? Or are they offering something else that is "emotional". I bet the number is NOT the mean of either the current round nor the expected value mean of the next round.
October 31, 2006
Elizabeth said

I've heard that the offer is based on the mean, but there's also a luck factor (x factor?). Obviously, an increase in the mean results in an increase in the offer, and the same is true of a decrease, but there is another part, too. I think they up the ratio if you're doing well, and drop it if you're doing poorly... though there seems to be a general trend for the ratio to increase.
October 31, 2006
nell nestor said

Well, knowing "maroon" jkust shows you remember Bugs Bunny, and that's no major intellectual feat. But the whole show looks tome like it plays on people's greed.
November 01, 2006
Jeana Lewis said

86% of all statistics are just made up on the spot.

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