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<channel>
	<title>Karissa Krapf's PhuseBox</title>
	<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears</link>
	<description>Karissa Krapf's PhuseBox</description>
	
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		<item>
			<title>God is malicious?</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29624</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29624</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:48:08 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29624</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[So Graham posted this on his facebook:<br /><br /><br />
<div class="note_header"><br />
<div class="note_title"><a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=2210266397">Sovereignty</a></div><br />
<div class="byline"><span> by <a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=38400922">Graham Wells</a> (<a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/notes.php?id=38400922">notes</a>)</span> 12:22am Thursday, Sep 21</div></div><br />
<div class="note_content clearfix"><br />
<div>I think that when it comes to God, we like to forget that sovereignty means absolute authority and control.<br /><br /><br />
I think that is an uncomfortable thought. Not only does that mean that<br />
God DOES let bad things happen (they COULDNT happen, in fact, without<br />
His allowing them to), it really does make a lot of other issues a lot<br />
weirder, especially the question of the doctrine of election, better<br />
known as predestination.<br /><br /><br />
In a discussion on predestination, a question occurred to me. If<br />
election isnt true, if God doesnt already know precisely who will or<br />
wont be saved (which, Him knowing that means that it MUST happen, which<br />
could be seen as choosing), if that isnt in His hands, then God is NOT<br />
all-powerful and NOT all-knowing. We know that God is both of those<br />
things, right? I'm not saying that I'm absolutely right, but the logic<br />
is painfully and irritatingly obvious.<br /><br /><br />
So what about free will? Simple answer is that I dont know. According<br />
to Psalms, every step of our life was written out by God before our<br />
birth. That means He knows every sin, every joy, every mistake, every<br />
single thing that we will do before we even think a coherent thought.<br />
Once He knows something, that is the way it is. There are no "what if"<br />
games with what God knows, no room for Him "knowing where each of our<br />
choices could lead." To be all-knowing, He MUST know every answer<br />
already. By Him knowing it, it MUST happen that way. That means that<br />
though we have free will, we have no choice at all and we dont even<br />
realize it.<br /><br /><br />
As frustrating and ego bruising as that is, I find that I dont really<br />
care that much. More than He cares for us, Yhwh desires His own glory.<br />
If it is in His plan that He is glorified by my one path, then so be it.<br /><br /><br />
Darned peculiar thought process. I'm reasonably certain I intended to<br />
be in bed almost an hour ago. I dunno. I'm open to other thoughts or<br />
people punching holes in mine. :-)</div></div><br /><br />I responded with:<br /><br /><br />
<div class="wallheader"><a class="profile_link" href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=38402719">Karissa Krapf</a> wrote<br /><small>at 11:26pm on October 20th, 2006</small></div><br />
<div class="walltext">The<br />
problem is the Bible says different things about god...so no one really<br />
knows what this supposed god is like...which is why i think hes most<br />
likely made up...and if a god does exist we dont know shit about him-<br />
obviously. Also, if he knows everything and is all powerful, that means<br />
he made us sin...so he damned some of us to hell on purpose because he<br />
put the tree there and knew what we would do if he did...messed up<br />
stuff. but i take great comfort in knowing it probably isnt real.<br /><br /><br />Graham responded:<br /><br /><br />
<table cellspacing="0" border="0" class="formtable"><br />
<tbody><br />
<tr class="tallrow"><br />
<td class="label">From:</td><br />
<td><a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=38400922">Graham Wells</a></td></tr><br />
<tr class="tallrow"><br />
<td class="label">To:</td><br />
<td><a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=38402719">Karissa Krapf</a></td></tr><br />
<tr class="tallrow"><br />
<td class="label">Subject:</td><br />
<td>Well . . .  you're right on something.</td></tr><br />
<tr class="tallrow"><br />
<td class="label">Message:</td><br />
<td>"What if God,<br />
choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great<br />
patience the objects of wrath - prepared for destruction?" Romans 9:22<br /><br />So<br />
yeah, I think that does state that some people are created that are<br />
destined for destruction in the long run. It's not pretty, but a lot of<br />
things arent. *shrug*</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br />Is this what every Christian believes?&nbsp; I have definite problems with this and I would hope that others do as well.&nbsp; God cannot possibly be what Graham states and be loving/all good.&nbsp; It would basically go like this:&nbsp; God says, "Okay, I'm going to make some people.&nbsp; I am going to make a place called hell (or it already existed) and make some of the people burn in it.&nbsp; I will torture them forever.&nbsp; I will give them the illusion of choice between me and hell, but ultimately a lot of them will burn for all eternity because I say so."&nbsp; Now seriously people, that is far from good.&nbsp; And that is not love.&nbsp; That is like me saying that I will have children and give one all of my love, care, attention, and help them their whole life, and the others I will throw out on the street or keep in a closet with little food and water and beat occasionally.&nbsp; Tell me how that is NOT the same thing.&nbsp; And on top of that, God supposedly expects his Christians to be good, loving, and "turn the other cheek"=peaceful.&nbsp; Hypocrisy?&nbsp; Basically, the concept of god being concerned about his authority and his glory and thus electing some people to be with him cannot be reconciled with god being love and goodness.&nbsp; Tell me how it can be.&nbsp; It can't.&nbsp; And I can't believe anyone would want to worship a God like that.<br /><br />Opinions please.<br /></div><br />]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[So Graham posted this on his facebook:<br /><br /><br />
<div class="note_header"><br />
<div class="note_title"><a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=2210266397">Sovereignty</a></div><br />
<div class="byline"><span> by <a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=38400922">Graham Wells</a> (<a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/notes.php?id=38400922">notes</a>)</span> 12:22am Thursday, Sep 21</div></div><br />
<div class="note_content clearfix"><br />
<div>I think that when it comes to God, we like to forget that sovereignty means absolute authority and control.<br /><br /><br />
I think that is an uncomfortable thought. Not only does that mean that<br />
God DOES let bad things happen (they COULDNT happen, in fact, without<br />
His allowing them to), it really does make a lot of other issues a lot<br />
weirder, especially the question of the doctrine of election, better<br />
known as predestination.<br /><br /><br />
In a discussion on predestination, a question occurred to me. If<br />
election isnt true, if God doesnt already know precisely who will or<br />
wont be saved (which, Him knowing that means that it MUST happen, which<br />
could be seen as choosing), if that isnt in His hands, then God is NOT<br />
all-powerful and NOT all-knowing. We know that God is both of those<br />
things, right? I'm not saying that I'm absolutely right, but the logic<br />
is painfully and irritatingly obvious.<br /><br /><br />
So what about free will? Simple answer is that I dont know. According<br />
to Psalms, every step of our life was written out by God before our<br />
birth. That means He knows every sin, every joy, every mistake, every<br />
single thing that we will do before we even think a coherent thought.<br />
Once He knows something, that is the way it is. There are no "what if"<br />
games with what God knows, no room for Him "knowing where each of our<br />
choices could lead." To be all-knowing, He MUST know every answer<br />
already. By Him knowing it, it MUST happen that way. That means that<br />
though we have free will, we have no choice at all and we dont even<br />
realize it.<br /><br /><br />
As frustrating and ego bruising as that is, I find that I dont really<br />
care that much. More than He cares for us, Yhwh desires His own glory.<br />
If it is in His plan that He is glorified by my one path, then so be it.<br /><br /><br />
Darned peculiar thought process. I'm reasonably certain I intended to<br />
be in bed almost an hour ago. I dunno. I'm open to other thoughts or<br />
people punching holes in mine. :-)</div></div><br /><br />I responded with:<br /><br /><br />
<div class="wallheader"><a class="profile_link" href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=38402719">Karissa Krapf</a> wrote<br /><small>at 11:26pm on October 20th, 2006</small></div><br />
<div class="walltext">The<br />
problem is the Bible says different things about god...so no one really<br />
knows what this supposed god is like...which is why i think hes most<br />
likely made up...and if a god does exist we dont know shit about him-<br />
obviously. Also, if he knows everything and is all powerful, that means<br />
he made us sin...so he damned some of us to hell on purpose because he<br />
put the tree there and knew what we would do if he did...messed up<br />
stuff. but i take great comfort in knowing it probably isnt real.<br /><br /><br />Graham responded:<br /><br /><br />
<table cellspacing="0" border="0" class="formtable"><br />
<tbody><br />
<tr class="tallrow"><br />
<td class="label">From:</td><br />
<td><a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=38400922">Graham Wells</a></td></tr><br />
<tr class="tallrow"><br />
<td class="label">To:</td><br />
<td><a href="http://mtsu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=38402719">Karissa Krapf</a></td></tr><br />
<tr class="tallrow"><br />
<td class="label">Subject:</td><br />
<td>Well . . .  you're right on something.</td></tr><br />
<tr class="tallrow"><br />
<td class="label">Message:</td><br />
<td>"What if God,<br />
choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great<br />
patience the objects of wrath - prepared for destruction?" Romans 9:22<br /><br />So<br />
yeah, I think that does state that some people are created that are<br />
destined for destruction in the long run. It's not pretty, but a lot of<br />
things arent. *shrug*</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br />Is this what every Christian believes?&nbsp; I have definite problems with this and I would hope that others do as well.&nbsp; God cannot possibly be what Graham states and be loving/all good.&nbsp; It would basically go like this:&nbsp; God says, "Okay, I'm going to make some people.&nbsp; I am going to make a place called hell (or it already existed) and make some of the people burn in it.&nbsp; I will torture them forever.&nbsp; I will give them the illusion of choice between me and hell, but ultimately a lot of them will burn for all eternity because I say so."&nbsp; Now seriously people, that is far from good.&nbsp; And that is not love.&nbsp; That is like me saying that I will have children and give one all of my love, care, attention, and help them their whole life, and the others I will throw out on the street or keep in a closet with little food and water and beat occasionally.&nbsp; Tell me how that is NOT the same thing.&nbsp; And on top of that, God supposedly expects his Christians to be good, loving, and "turn the other cheek"=peaceful.&nbsp; Hypocrisy?&nbsp; Basically, the concept of god being concerned about his authority and his glory and thus electing some people to be with him cannot be reconciled with god being love and goodness.&nbsp; Tell me how it can be.&nbsp; It can't.&nbsp; And I can't believe anyone would want to worship a God like that.<br /><br />Opinions please.<br /></div><br />]]></content:encoded>
	
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		<item>
			<title>One More Thing On Abortion</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29541</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29541</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:22:46 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29541</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[I found an entry at this <a rel="tag" target="_BLANK" href="http://rylesmalone.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pzP1U-47FVdvQVyn77I1iog!315.entry">website:</a><br /><br />It makes some VERY interesting points.&nbsp; Points that I never thought of as a Christian or an Atheist.&nbsp; It is worth reading the entire thing because it has a good message that is about more than just abortion.&nbsp; Please take the time to read it.&nbsp; And as the person below wrote when they posted it on their site, I would like your opinions ON THE ARTICLE- not on me like "your dumb" or "your logic is flawed".&nbsp; This isn't my logic.&nbsp; I just think this writer has a good point.<br /><br /><span id="ctl02_ctl00_lblPermalink"><br />
<h4 id="subjcns!F8D27F16E5CD0C99!315" class="TextColor1" style="margin-bottom: 0px;">Why Abortion is Biblical</h4><br />
<div id="msgcns!F8D27F16E5CD0C99!315"><br />
<div>Don't<br />
hate me for this one, I'm just a messenger.&nbsp; Although I wish I was<br />
brilliant and scholarly enough to be able to figure this out on my own,<br />
I have copied the entire article from&nbsp;an article by Byron Elroy<br />
McKinley.&nbsp; <a href="http://www.elroy.net/">http://www.elroy.net/</a>&nbsp; Enjoy.&nbsp; Please comment and tell me what you think.</div><br />
<div><br />
<hr /></div><br />
<div>&nbsp;</div><br />
<div>One sided. That's the abortion stance of most Christians -- one<br />
sided. We hear the Christian Coalition speak against abortion. We hear<br />
Focus on the Family tell Republican candidates it will not support them<br />
unless they state their opposition to abortion. We hear Operation<br />
Rescue's Christian members praying God will turn back the clock and<br />
make abortion illegal again. Over and over we are bombarded with the<br />
"Christian" perspective that abortion is outright wrong, no exceptions.<br />
<br />
<p>With all these groups chanting the same mantra, there must be some<br />
pretty overwhelming biblical evidence of abortion's evil, right? </p><br />
<p>Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that<br />
most people don't take time to read their own Bibles. People will<br />
listen to their pastors and to Christian radio broadcasters. They will<br />
skim through easy-to-read pamphlets and perhaps look up the one or two<br />
verses printed therein, but they don't actually read their Bibles and<br />
make up their own minds on issues such as abortion. They merely listen<br />
to others who quote a verse to support a view they heard from someone<br />
else. By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for<br />
themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many<br />
of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible,<br />
often taken out of context. </p><br />
<p>This is most definitely the case when it comes to abortion.<br />
Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll<br />
give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment<br />
against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion<br />
is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the<br />
same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these<br />
Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working<br />
in the womb. The first is found in Psalms: </p><dl><dd>"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my<br />
mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully<br />
wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and<br />
wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very<br />
well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and<br />
skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my<br />
unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days<br />
that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 139:13-16 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Although this<br />
passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of<br />
this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation<br />
the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in<br />
the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every<br />
living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was<br />
involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same<br />
as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed. <br />
<p>But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that<br />
anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the<br />
Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will<br />
soon see, abortion is biblical. </p><br />
<p>Anytime we take one or two verses out of their context and<br />
quote them as doctrine, we place ourselves in jeopardy of being<br />
contradicted by other verses. Similarly, some verses that make perfect<br />
sense while standing alone take on a different feel when seen in the<br />
greater context in which they were written. And we can do some rather<br />
bizarre things to the Scriptures when we take disparate verses from the<br />
same context and use them as stand-alone doctrinal statements. Some<br />
prime examples of this come from the same book of the Bible as our last<br />
quote. Consider these verses that claim that God has abandoned us: </p><dl><dd>"Why dost Thou stand afar off, O Lord? Why dost Thou hide Thyself in times of trouble?" <br />
<dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 10:1 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd><dd>"How long, O Lord? Wilt Thou forget me forever? How long wilt Thou hide Thy face from me?" <br />
<dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 13:1 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd><dd>"O God, Thou hast rejected us. Thou hast broken us; Thou hast been angry; O, restore us. <br />
<dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 60:1 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Not only can we use<br />
out-of-context verses to support that God doesn't care for us anymore,<br />
we can even use them to show how we can ask God to do horrible and vile<br />
things to people we consider our enemies. In this example, King David<br />
even wanted God to cause harm to the innocent children of his enemy: <dl><dd>"Let his days be few; let another take his office. Let his children<br />
be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children wander about and<br />
beg; and let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. Let the<br />
creditor seize all that he has; and let strangers plunder the product<br />
of his labor. Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, nor<br />
any to be gracious to his fatherless children." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 109:8-12 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Are we indeed to<br />
interpret that God, speaking through David in these Psalms, is saying<br />
we have been abandoned by God and that when wronged we can ask God to<br />
cause our enemies to die and cause our enemies' children to wander<br />
hungry and homeless? Indeed, it would seem the case. <br />
<p>But rather than interpret that God is with us as a fetus, but<br />
forgets us as adults, and yet will allow us to plead for the death of<br />
our enemies, we need to look at the greater context in which all these<br />
verses are found: songs. </p><br />
<p>Called Psalms, these are the songs of King David, a man of<br />
great faith who was also greatly tormented. He was a man of passions.<br />
He loved God, lusted for another man's wife, and murdered him to get<br />
her. He marveled at nature and at his own existence. All his great<br />
swings in emotion are recorded in the songs he wrote, and we can read<br />
them today in the Book of Psalms. What we cannot do is take one song,<br />
or one stanza of a song, and proclaim that it is indeed to be taken<br />
literally while taking other stanzas from David's songs and claim they<br />
should not be taken literally. </p><br />
<p>Yet that is exactly what anti-abortion Christians are asking<br />
us to do. They use those few verses from the Psalms to support their<br />
dogma that abortion is wrong. They proclaim those verses as holy writ<br />
and the other verses as poetry that we should not be following.<br />
Clearly, this is a perfect example of taking verses out of context. And<br />
it leads us to only one conclusion: if we cannot trust that God wants<br />
to kill our enemies and abandon us, we must also conclude that we<br />
cannot trust that God has defined the fetus as being a person. </p><br />
<p>For indeed, if we allow that kind of thinking we could also<br />
make an argument that God is willing to maul children to death if they<br />
make fun of a bald guy who just happens to be in God's favor. You think<br />
I'm joking, but I'm not. In the book of Second Kings, our hero, the<br />
Prophet Elisha, who was quite bald, so it seems, was taunted by a group<br />
of young boys. Elisha's response was bitter and cruel: </p><dl><dd>"...as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the<br />
city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up you<br />
baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in<br />
the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and<br />
tore up forty-two lads of their number." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>2 Kings 2:22-24 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Did God kill<br />
those forty-two kids for making fun of a bald prophet? We can certainly<br />
make an argument for that if we use the anti-abortionists' kind of<br />
thinking. <br />
<p>Likewise we can also use the anti-abortionists' methods to<br />
establish that God approves of pornography, as seen in these following<br />
verses by Solomon as he pondered the female body: </p><dl><dd>"How beautiful are your feet in sandals, O prince's daughter! The<br />
curves of your hips are like jewels, the work of the hands of an<br />
artist. Your navel is like a round goblet which never lacks for mixed<br />
wine; your belly is like a heap of wheat fenced about with lilies. Your<br />
two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle." <br />
<p>"Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its<br />
clusters. I said 'I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its<br />
fruit stalks.' Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and<br />
the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best<br />
wine." </p><dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Song of Solomon 7:1-3,7-9 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Pretty<br />
steamy stuff. Taken by itself, it would appear God is indeed promoting<br />
a written form of pornography. But just like Psalm 139:13-16, we cannot<br />
take it by itself. Instead we must take it within the context it was<br />
written. <br />
<p>The same is true with the other two verses used by anti-abortion<br />
Christians to defend their cause. From the book of Jeremiah, these<br />
Crusaders are fond of quoting the phrase, <i>"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,"</i> from the first chapter. But they never quote the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably: <br />
</p><dl><dd>"Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed<br />
thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the<br />
womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.<br />
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.<br />
But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to<br />
all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt<br />
speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver<br />
thee, saith the Lord. Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my<br />
mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy<br />
mouth. See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the<br />
kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw<br />
down, to build, and to plant." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Jeremiah 1:4-10 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>This is a<br />
special event -- the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet<br />
Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God<br />
was planning Jeremiah's life "before" he was even conceived. God was<br />
preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God<br />
while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and<br />
kingdoms. But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way<br />
to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as<br />
individual people while still in the womb. God saw Jeremiah in that<br />
way, but to claim it applies to all of us is akin to saying that we<br />
were all prepared as children to speak for God, and that God has placed<br />
all of us "over the nations and over the kingdoms" of the world. In<br />
essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is<br />
to claim that we are all God's divine prophets. We are not; therefore,<br />
we cannot apply these verses to our own lives. <br />
<p>Another problem in this passage is the phrase, "Before I formed<br />
thee in the belly I knew thee." In Psalm 139:13-16 the<br />
anti-abortionists claim that because God was active in the creation of<br />
King David in his mother's womb that we must conclude the fetus is<br />
recognized by God as being a person. But here we see God stating that<br />
he knew Jeremiah "before" he was formed in the womb. By<br />
anti-abortionist logic, we would have to conclude that we are a human<br />
person even before conception. Since this is a ridiculous notion, we<br />
must, therefore, conclude that the anti-abortionist is interpreting<br />
these verses incorrectly. </p><br />
<p>The last verse most often quoted by anti-abortion Christians<br />
relates the story of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and<br />
Mary, the mother of Jesus, while both were pregnant. When they meet,<br />
the pre-born John the Baptist leaps in his mother's womb at Mary's<br />
salutation. Let's read the original: </p><dl><dd>"And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with<br />
haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias,<br />
and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard<br />
the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was<br />
filled with the Holy Ghost:" <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Luke 1:39-41 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>As much as the<br />
anti-abortion lobby would like this to mean that all fetuses are<br />
sentient persons because one is recorded as knowing Mary's words and<br />
then leapt inside the womb, the logic is as flawed as the Isaiah<br />
misquote. Again we have a miraculous event. Again we have a divine<br />
prophet whom God had ordained since before he was conceived. And this<br />
time it's even more miraculous, because the gestating John the Baptist<br />
is reacting to the approach of Mary, who at the time was pregnant with<br />
Jesus. Unless we believe all of us are chosen before birth to be the<br />
divine prophet ordained by God to herald the arrival of Christ on<br />
earth, then we cannot claim this passage refers to us. And indeed, it<br />
does not. While gestating fetuses are known to move and kick as their<br />
nervous systems and muscles are under construction, only<br />
divinely-inspired babies understand the spoken words of the mother of<br />
Jesus and can leap in recognition. <br />
<p>The point to all this is simple: we cannot take the verses we like<br />
and interpret them to support what we want to support. And, more to the<br />
point, we cannot simply accept what some Christian leaders proclaim as<br />
being God's word on a given subject without carefully reading the full<br />
text of the book and taking into consideration the entire context. We<br />
cannot, as we have shown, simply interpret those few verses from<br />
Psalms, Isaiah, and Luke as a reason to be against abortion. And, as we<br />
will see in a moment, there are still other verses -- if interpreted in<br />
the sloppy manner demonstrated by anti-abortion Christians -- in the<br />
Bible that could easily lead us to argue that indeed God, at times,<br />
supports abortion. Let's take a look. </p><br />
<p>In the full context of Ecclesiastes, King Solomon makes the<br />
point that much of life is futile. Over and over he writes that if life<br />
is good then we should be thankful. But when life is not good, Solomon<br />
makes some interesting statements: </p><dl><dd>"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however<br />
many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he<br />
does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage<br />
than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name<br />
is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows<br />
anything; it is better off than he.'" <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Clearly there<br />
is a quality of life issue being put forth in the Scriptures. And in<br />
this case, Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a<br />
pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable<br />
life. This is made even more clear in these following verses: <dl><dd>"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being<br />
done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and<br />
that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their<br />
oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I<br />
congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who<br />
are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has<br />
never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under<br />
the sun." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Here we have<br />
an argument for both euthanasia and abortion. When quality of life is<br />
at stake, Solomon seems to make the argument that ending a painful life<br />
or ending what will be a painful existence is preferable. Now remember,<br />
we're not talking about David's songs here. We're reading the words of<br />
the man to whom God gave the world's greatest wisdom. <br />
<p>And Solomon was not alone in this argument. Consider the words of<br />
Job, a man of great faith and wealth, when his life fell upon the<br />
hardest of times: </p><dl><dd>"And Job said, 'Let the day perish on which I was to be born, and<br />
the night which said, "a boy is conceived." May that day be darkness;<br />
let not God above care for it, nor light shine on it.'" <br />
<p>"Why did I not die at birth, come forth from my womb and expire?<br />
Why did the knees receive me, and why the breasts, that I should suck?<br />
For now I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept then,<br />
I would have been at rest, with kings and with counselors of the earth,<br />
who rebuilt ruins for themselves; or with princes who had gold, who<br />
were filling their houses with silver,. Or like the miscarriage which<br />
is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light. There<br />
the wicked cease from raging, and there the weary are at rest. The<br />
prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the<br />
taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free<br />
from his master." </p><dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Job 3:2-4,11-19 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>And again a few chapters later Job reiterates the greater grace he would have known if his life had been terminated as a fetus: <br />
<dl><dd>"Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had<br />
died and no eye had seen me! I should have been as though I had not<br />
been, carried from womb to tomb." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Job 10:18-19 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Clearly there is a<br />
strong argument here that the quality of a life is as important if not<br />
more important than the act of being born. Indeed, we could claim that<br />
the Bible supports ending a pregnancy in the face of a life without<br />
quality. And, if I wanted to be bold, I could claim that this<br />
interpretation is in fact a biblical mandate to support the use of<br />
abortion as a way to improve our quality of life. And taking these<br />
verses to their extreme, I could claim that abortion is not just a good<br />
idea, it is a sacrament. <br />
<p>Actually, I will stop short of making that claim. In fact, I will<br />
stop short of making the claim that the Bible condemns or supports<br />
abortion at all. It does neither. The condemning and supporting comes<br />
not from the words of the Bible but from leaders within our Culture of<br />
Christianity who use verses out of context -- the same way I just did<br />
to support abortion -- to support their views against abortion. The<br />
condemning and the supporting comes not from the Scriptures but from<br />
average Christians who take the easy way out, accepting one or two<br />
verses of the Bible as proof that their leaders are speaking the gospel<br />
truth. The condemning and supporting comes not from God but from those<br />
who do not take the time to read the Bible, in its own context, and<br />
decide for themselves the meanings therein. </p><br />
<p>For indeed, there is one passage in the Bible that deals<br />
specifically with the act of causing a woman to abort a pregnancy. And<br />
the penalty for causing the abortion is not what many would lead us to<br />
believe: </p><dl><dd>"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has<br />
a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the<br />
woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges<br />
decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a<br />
penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand,<br />
foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Exodus 21:22-25 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl><br />
<p>This is a very illuminating passage. In it we find a woman losing<br />
her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being<br />
a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the<br />
father-to-be taking the participants to court for a settlement. But, as<br />
we read on, if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men<br />
who killed her shall be killed. Some have claimed that the life for a<br />
life part is talking about the baby. But from reading the context we<br />
can see this is not true. It also states a tooth for a tooth and a burn<br />
for a burn. Babies don't have teeth when they are born, and it is<br />
highly unlikely a baby will be burned during birth. It is pretty clear<br />
that this part refers to the mother. Thus we can see that if the baby<br />
is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered<br />
murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is<br />
punished by death. </p><br />
<p>It's important to note that some anti-abortion lobbyists want<br />
to convince us the baby in this passage survived the miscarriage. They<br />
point to the more "politically-correct" translation they find in the<br />
New International Version of the Bible. There it translates the term<br />
"miscarriage" into "gives birth prematurely" (the actual words in<br />
Hebrew translate "she lose her offspring"). While this may give them<br />
the warm and fuzzy notion that this verse might actually support their<br />
cause if maybe the child survived, it is wishful thinking at best. In<br />
our modern era of miracle medicine only 60% of all premature births<br />
survive. Three thousand years ago, when this passage was written, they<br />
did not have modern technology to keep a preemie alive. In fact, at<br />
that time, more than half of all live births died before their first<br />
birthday. In a world like that, a premature birth was a death sentence.<br />
</p><br />
<p>Others have looked to the actual Hebrew words, themselves, to try and refute these verses. They note that the word "<i>yalad</i>" is used in verse 22 to describe the untimely birth, and that <i>yalad</i> is also used in other places to describe a live birth. They then go on to say other places in the Bible use the words "<i>nefel</i>" and "<i>shakol</i>"<br />
to describe a miscarriage. Therefore, the argument goes, the baby in<br />
Exodus 21:22 must have been born alive. It's easy to see how a novice<br />
might make this mistake, but a closer look at the words in question<br />
reveal the flaw in this argument. </p><br />
<p>The word <i>yalad</i> is a verb that describes the process of<br />
something coming out - the departing of the fetus. Since it is<br />
describing the process, and not the result, it could be used to<br />
describe either a live birth or a miscarriage. <i>Shakol</i> which<br />
shows up in Hosea 9:14, is also a verb, but its meaning is to make a<br />
woman barren. Now a barren woman certainly might miscarry, but with<br />
this understanding of the word, it's clear why the writer of Exodus<br />
would not have used it since this miscarriage was caused by an<br />
accident, not by barrenness. And the word <i>nefel</i> is not even a<br />
verb. It's a noun. True, as a noun it is the term for a miscarried<br />
fetus, but the writer wasn't using a noun. He was using a verb to<br />
describe the coming out of the fetus. Thus, if I were describing a man<br />
falling to his death, I would use the verb "to fall" which can be used<br />
for both those who die and those who survive a fall, but to describe<br />
the man himself I would use the word the "fatality." So we can see that<br />
while a novice might mistake a verb for a noun and come to the wrong<br />
conclusions about the original Hebrew words used in the Exodus passage,<br />
a more careful look proves that the words only describe the action of<br />
losing the fetus, not the fetus itself. And that being the case, we<br />
can't use the Hebrew translations to determine if the fetus was alive<br />
or not when it came out - so we are forced to accept that in all<br />
certainly, considering the medical knowledge at the time, the preemie<br />
died. This makes it even more clear that the "tooth for a tooth"<br />
passage refers only to the mother, not to the miscarried fetus. </p><br />
<p>What has been so clearly demonstrated by the passage in Exodus<br />
- the fact that God does not consider a fetus a human person - can also<br />
be seen in a variety of other Bible verses. In Leviticus 27:6 a<br />
monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one<br />
month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a<br />
census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one<br />
month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not<br />
counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God<br />
re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the<br />
interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first<br />
breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant<br />
new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes<br />
him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a<br />
pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of<br />
Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into<br />
consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them,<br />
believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why<br />
would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is<br />
simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a<br />
murder. Period. </p><br />
<p>It is time to stop the one-sided view of abortion being<br />
proclaimed by Christian leaders. These leaders do not -- despite their<br />
claims -- have a biblical mandate for their theologies. It is time to<br />
stop preaching that the Bible contain an undeniable doctrine against<br />
abortion. It is time to stop the anger and hatred being heaped on<br />
abortion doctors and upon women who have abortions, especially when<br />
it's done in the name of a God who has not written such condemnations<br />
in his Bible. It is time to stop, because the act of making a judgment<br />
against people in God's name, when God is not behind the judging, is<br />
nothing short of claiming that our own beliefs are more important than<br />
God's. We must stop, because if we don't, then indeed the very type of<br />
theological argument being used against abortion can be turned around<br />
and used to proclaim that abortion is biblical. </p></div></div></span><br />]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[I found an entry at this <a rel="tag" target="_BLANK" href="http://rylesmalone.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pzP1U-47FVdvQVyn77I1iog!315.entry">website:</a><br /><br />It makes some VERY interesting points.&nbsp; Points that I never thought of as a Christian or an Atheist.&nbsp; It is worth reading the entire thing because it has a good message that is about more than just abortion.&nbsp; Please take the time to read it.&nbsp; And as the person below wrote when they posted it on their site, I would like your opinions ON THE ARTICLE- not on me like "your dumb" or "your logic is flawed".&nbsp; This isn't my logic.&nbsp; I just think this writer has a good point.<br /><br /><span id="ctl02_ctl00_lblPermalink"><br />
<h4 id="subjcns!F8D27F16E5CD0C99!315" class="TextColor1" style="margin-bottom: 0px;">Why Abortion is Biblical</h4><br />
<div id="msgcns!F8D27F16E5CD0C99!315"><br />
<div>Don't<br />
hate me for this one, I'm just a messenger.&nbsp; Although I wish I was<br />
brilliant and scholarly enough to be able to figure this out on my own,<br />
I have copied the entire article from&nbsp;an article by Byron Elroy<br />
McKinley.&nbsp; <a href="http://www.elroy.net/">http://www.elroy.net/</a>&nbsp; Enjoy.&nbsp; Please comment and tell me what you think.</div><br />
<div><br />
<hr /></div><br />
<div>&nbsp;</div><br />
<div>One sided. That's the abortion stance of most Christians -- one<br />
sided. We hear the Christian Coalition speak against abortion. We hear<br />
Focus on the Family tell Republican candidates it will not support them<br />
unless they state their opposition to abortion. We hear Operation<br />
Rescue's Christian members praying God will turn back the clock and<br />
make abortion illegal again. Over and over we are bombarded with the<br />
"Christian" perspective that abortion is outright wrong, no exceptions.<br />
<br />
<p>With all these groups chanting the same mantra, there must be some<br />
pretty overwhelming biblical evidence of abortion's evil, right? </p><br />
<p>Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that<br />
most people don't take time to read their own Bibles. People will<br />
listen to their pastors and to Christian radio broadcasters. They will<br />
skim through easy-to-read pamphlets and perhaps look up the one or two<br />
verses printed therein, but they don't actually read their Bibles and<br />
make up their own minds on issues such as abortion. They merely listen<br />
to others who quote a verse to support a view they heard from someone<br />
else. By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for<br />
themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many<br />
of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible,<br />
often taken out of context. </p><br />
<p>This is most definitely the case when it comes to abortion.<br />
Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll<br />
give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment<br />
against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion<br />
is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the<br />
same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these<br />
Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working<br />
in the womb. The first is found in Psalms: </p><dl><dd>"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my<br />
mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully<br />
wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and<br />
wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very<br />
well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and<br />
skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my<br />
unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days<br />
that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 139:13-16 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Although this<br />
passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of<br />
this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation<br />
the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in<br />
the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every<br />
living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was<br />
involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same<br />
as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed. <br />
<p>But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that<br />
anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the<br />
Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will<br />
soon see, abortion is biblical. </p><br />
<p>Anytime we take one or two verses out of their context and<br />
quote them as doctrine, we place ourselves in jeopardy of being<br />
contradicted by other verses. Similarly, some verses that make perfect<br />
sense while standing alone take on a different feel when seen in the<br />
greater context in which they were written. And we can do some rather<br />
bizarre things to the Scriptures when we take disparate verses from the<br />
same context and use them as stand-alone doctrinal statements. Some<br />
prime examples of this come from the same book of the Bible as our last<br />
quote. Consider these verses that claim that God has abandoned us: </p><dl><dd>"Why dost Thou stand afar off, O Lord? Why dost Thou hide Thyself in times of trouble?" <br />
<dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 10:1 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd><dd>"How long, O Lord? Wilt Thou forget me forever? How long wilt Thou hide Thy face from me?" <br />
<dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 13:1 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd><dd>"O God, Thou hast rejected us. Thou hast broken us; Thou hast been angry; O, restore us. <br />
<dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 60:1 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Not only can we use<br />
out-of-context verses to support that God doesn't care for us anymore,<br />
we can even use them to show how we can ask God to do horrible and vile<br />
things to people we consider our enemies. In this example, King David<br />
even wanted God to cause harm to the innocent children of his enemy: <dl><dd>"Let his days be few; let another take his office. Let his children<br />
be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children wander about and<br />
beg; and let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. Let the<br />
creditor seize all that he has; and let strangers plunder the product<br />
of his labor. Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, nor<br />
any to be gracious to his fatherless children." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Psalm 109:8-12 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Are we indeed to<br />
interpret that God, speaking through David in these Psalms, is saying<br />
we have been abandoned by God and that when wronged we can ask God to<br />
cause our enemies to die and cause our enemies' children to wander<br />
hungry and homeless? Indeed, it would seem the case. <br />
<p>But rather than interpret that God is with us as a fetus, but<br />
forgets us as adults, and yet will allow us to plead for the death of<br />
our enemies, we need to look at the greater context in which all these<br />
verses are found: songs. </p><br />
<p>Called Psalms, these are the songs of King David, a man of<br />
great faith who was also greatly tormented. He was a man of passions.<br />
He loved God, lusted for another man's wife, and murdered him to get<br />
her. He marveled at nature and at his own existence. All his great<br />
swings in emotion are recorded in the songs he wrote, and we can read<br />
them today in the Book of Psalms. What we cannot do is take one song,<br />
or one stanza of a song, and proclaim that it is indeed to be taken<br />
literally while taking other stanzas from David's songs and claim they<br />
should not be taken literally. </p><br />
<p>Yet that is exactly what anti-abortion Christians are asking<br />
us to do. They use those few verses from the Psalms to support their<br />
dogma that abortion is wrong. They proclaim those verses as holy writ<br />
and the other verses as poetry that we should not be following.<br />
Clearly, this is a perfect example of taking verses out of context. And<br />
it leads us to only one conclusion: if we cannot trust that God wants<br />
to kill our enemies and abandon us, we must also conclude that we<br />
cannot trust that God has defined the fetus as being a person. </p><br />
<p>For indeed, if we allow that kind of thinking we could also<br />
make an argument that God is willing to maul children to death if they<br />
make fun of a bald guy who just happens to be in God's favor. You think<br />
I'm joking, but I'm not. In the book of Second Kings, our hero, the<br />
Prophet Elisha, who was quite bald, so it seems, was taunted by a group<br />
of young boys. Elisha's response was bitter and cruel: </p><dl><dd>"...as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the<br />
city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up you<br />
baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in<br />
the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and<br />
tore up forty-two lads of their number." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>2 Kings 2:22-24 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Did God kill<br />
those forty-two kids for making fun of a bald prophet? We can certainly<br />
make an argument for that if we use the anti-abortionists' kind of<br />
thinking. <br />
<p>Likewise we can also use the anti-abortionists' methods to<br />
establish that God approves of pornography, as seen in these following<br />
verses by Solomon as he pondered the female body: </p><dl><dd>"How beautiful are your feet in sandals, O prince's daughter! The<br />
curves of your hips are like jewels, the work of the hands of an<br />
artist. Your navel is like a round goblet which never lacks for mixed<br />
wine; your belly is like a heap of wheat fenced about with lilies. Your<br />
two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle." <br />
<p>"Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its<br />
clusters. I said 'I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its<br />
fruit stalks.' Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and<br />
the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best<br />
wine." </p><dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Song of Solomon 7:1-3,7-9 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Pretty<br />
steamy stuff. Taken by itself, it would appear God is indeed promoting<br />
a written form of pornography. But just like Psalm 139:13-16, we cannot<br />
take it by itself. Instead we must take it within the context it was<br />
written. <br />
<p>The same is true with the other two verses used by anti-abortion<br />
Christians to defend their cause. From the book of Jeremiah, these<br />
Crusaders are fond of quoting the phrase, <i>"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,"</i> from the first chapter. But they never quote the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably: <br />
</p><dl><dd>"Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed<br />
thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the<br />
womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.<br />
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.<br />
But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to<br />
all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt<br />
speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver<br />
thee, saith the Lord. Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my<br />
mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy<br />
mouth. See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the<br />
kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw<br />
down, to build, and to plant." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Jeremiah 1:4-10 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>This is a<br />
special event -- the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet<br />
Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God<br />
was planning Jeremiah's life "before" he was even conceived. God was<br />
preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God<br />
while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and<br />
kingdoms. But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way<br />
to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as<br />
individual people while still in the womb. God saw Jeremiah in that<br />
way, but to claim it applies to all of us is akin to saying that we<br />
were all prepared as children to speak for God, and that God has placed<br />
all of us "over the nations and over the kingdoms" of the world. In<br />
essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is<br />
to claim that we are all God's divine prophets. We are not; therefore,<br />
we cannot apply these verses to our own lives. <br />
<p>Another problem in this passage is the phrase, "Before I formed<br />
thee in the belly I knew thee." In Psalm 139:13-16 the<br />
anti-abortionists claim that because God was active in the creation of<br />
King David in his mother's womb that we must conclude the fetus is<br />
recognized by God as being a person. But here we see God stating that<br />
he knew Jeremiah "before" he was formed in the womb. By<br />
anti-abortionist logic, we would have to conclude that we are a human<br />
person even before conception. Since this is a ridiculous notion, we<br />
must, therefore, conclude that the anti-abortionist is interpreting<br />
these verses incorrectly. </p><br />
<p>The last verse most often quoted by anti-abortion Christians<br />
relates the story of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and<br />
Mary, the mother of Jesus, while both were pregnant. When they meet,<br />
the pre-born John the Baptist leaps in his mother's womb at Mary's<br />
salutation. Let's read the original: </p><dl><dd>"And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with<br />
haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias,<br />
and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard<br />
the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was<br />
filled with the Holy Ghost:" <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Luke 1:39-41 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>As much as the<br />
anti-abortion lobby would like this to mean that all fetuses are<br />
sentient persons because one is recorded as knowing Mary's words and<br />
then leapt inside the womb, the logic is as flawed as the Isaiah<br />
misquote. Again we have a miraculous event. Again we have a divine<br />
prophet whom God had ordained since before he was conceived. And this<br />
time it's even more miraculous, because the gestating John the Baptist<br />
is reacting to the approach of Mary, who at the time was pregnant with<br />
Jesus. Unless we believe all of us are chosen before birth to be the<br />
divine prophet ordained by God to herald the arrival of Christ on<br />
earth, then we cannot claim this passage refers to us. And indeed, it<br />
does not. While gestating fetuses are known to move and kick as their<br />
nervous systems and muscles are under construction, only<br />
divinely-inspired babies understand the spoken words of the mother of<br />
Jesus and can leap in recognition. <br />
<p>The point to all this is simple: we cannot take the verses we like<br />
and interpret them to support what we want to support. And, more to the<br />
point, we cannot simply accept what some Christian leaders proclaim as<br />
being God's word on a given subject without carefully reading the full<br />
text of the book and taking into consideration the entire context. We<br />
cannot, as we have shown, simply interpret those few verses from<br />
Psalms, Isaiah, and Luke as a reason to be against abortion. And, as we<br />
will see in a moment, there are still other verses -- if interpreted in<br />
the sloppy manner demonstrated by anti-abortion Christians -- in the<br />
Bible that could easily lead us to argue that indeed God, at times,<br />
supports abortion. Let's take a look. </p><br />
<p>In the full context of Ecclesiastes, King Solomon makes the<br />
point that much of life is futile. Over and over he writes that if life<br />
is good then we should be thankful. But when life is not good, Solomon<br />
makes some interesting statements: </p><dl><dd>"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however<br />
many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he<br />
does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage<br />
than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name<br />
is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows<br />
anything; it is better off than he.'" <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Clearly there<br />
is a quality of life issue being put forth in the Scriptures. And in<br />
this case, Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a<br />
pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable<br />
life. This is made even more clear in these following verses: <dl><dd>"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being<br />
done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and<br />
that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their<br />
oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I<br />
congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who<br />
are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has<br />
never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under<br />
the sun." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Here we have<br />
an argument for both euthanasia and abortion. When quality of life is<br />
at stake, Solomon seems to make the argument that ending a painful life<br />
or ending what will be a painful existence is preferable. Now remember,<br />
we're not talking about David's songs here. We're reading the words of<br />
the man to whom God gave the world's greatest wisdom. <br />
<p>And Solomon was not alone in this argument. Consider the words of<br />
Job, a man of great faith and wealth, when his life fell upon the<br />
hardest of times: </p><dl><dd>"And Job said, 'Let the day perish on which I was to be born, and<br />
the night which said, "a boy is conceived." May that day be darkness;<br />
let not God above care for it, nor light shine on it.'" <br />
<p>"Why did I not die at birth, come forth from my womb and expire?<br />
Why did the knees receive me, and why the breasts, that I should suck?<br />
For now I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept then,<br />
I would have been at rest, with kings and with counselors of the earth,<br />
who rebuilt ruins for themselves; or with princes who had gold, who<br />
were filling their houses with silver,. Or like the miscarriage which<br />
is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light. There<br />
the wicked cease from raging, and there the weary are at rest. The<br />
prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the<br />
taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free<br />
from his master." </p><dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Job 3:2-4,11-19 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>And again a few chapters later Job reiterates the greater grace he would have known if his life had been terminated as a fetus: <br />
<dl><dd>"Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had<br />
died and no eye had seen me! I should have been as though I had not<br />
been, carried from womb to tomb." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Job 10:18-19 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl>Clearly there is a<br />
strong argument here that the quality of a life is as important if not<br />
more important than the act of being born. Indeed, we could claim that<br />
the Bible supports ending a pregnancy in the face of a life without<br />
quality. And, if I wanted to be bold, I could claim that this<br />
interpretation is in fact a biblical mandate to support the use of<br />
abortion as a way to improve our quality of life. And taking these<br />
verses to their extreme, I could claim that abortion is not just a good<br />
idea, it is a sacrament. <br />
<p>Actually, I will stop short of making that claim. In fact, I will<br />
stop short of making the claim that the Bible condemns or supports<br />
abortion at all. It does neither. The condemning and supporting comes<br />
not from the words of the Bible but from leaders within our Culture of<br />
Christianity who use verses out of context -- the same way I just did<br />
to support abortion -- to support their views against abortion. The<br />
condemning and the supporting comes not from the Scriptures but from<br />
average Christians who take the easy way out, accepting one or two<br />
verses of the Bible as proof that their leaders are speaking the gospel<br />
truth. The condemning and supporting comes not from God but from those<br />
who do not take the time to read the Bible, in its own context, and<br />
decide for themselves the meanings therein. </p><br />
<p>For indeed, there is one passage in the Bible that deals<br />
specifically with the act of causing a woman to abort a pregnancy. And<br />
the penalty for causing the abortion is not what many would lead us to<br />
believe: </p><dl><dd>"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has<br />
a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the<br />
woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges<br />
decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a<br />
penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand,<br />
foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." <dl><dl><dl><dl><dd>Exodus 21:22-25 </dd></dl></dl></dl></dl></dd></dl><br />
<p>This is a very illuminating passage. In it we find a woman losing<br />
her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being<br />
a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the<br />
father-to-be taking the participants to court for a settlement. But, as<br />
we read on, if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men<br />
who killed her shall be killed. Some have claimed that the life for a<br />
life part is talking about the baby. But from reading the context we<br />
can see this is not true. It also states a tooth for a tooth and a burn<br />
for a burn. Babies don't have teeth when they are born, and it is<br />
highly unlikely a baby will be burned during birth. It is pretty clear<br />
that this part refers to the mother. Thus we can see that if the baby<br />
is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered<br />
murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is<br />
punished by death. </p><br />
<p>It's important to note that some anti-abortion lobbyists want<br />
to convince us the baby in this passage survived the miscarriage. They<br />
point to the more "politically-correct" translation they find in the<br />
New International Version of the Bible. There it translates the term<br />
"miscarriage" into "gives birth prematurely" (the actual words in<br />
Hebrew translate "she lose her offspring"). While this may give them<br />
the warm and fuzzy notion that this verse might actually support their<br />
cause if maybe the child survived, it is wishful thinking at best. In<br />
our modern era of miracle medicine only 60% of all premature births<br />
survive. Three thousand years ago, when this passage was written, they<br />
did not have modern technology to keep a preemie alive. In fact, at<br />
that time, more than half of all live births died before their first<br />
birthday. In a world like that, a premature birth was a death sentence.<br />
</p><br />
<p>Others have looked to the actual Hebrew words, themselves, to try and refute these verses. They note that the word "<i>yalad</i>" is used in verse 22 to describe the untimely birth, and that <i>yalad</i> is also used in other places to describe a live birth. They then go on to say other places in the Bible use the words "<i>nefel</i>" and "<i>shakol</i>"<br />
to describe a miscarriage. Therefore, the argument goes, the baby in<br />
Exodus 21:22 must have been born alive. It's easy to see how a novice<br />
might make this mistake, but a closer look at the words in question<br />
reveal the flaw in this argument. </p><br />
<p>The word <i>yalad</i> is a verb that describes the process of<br />
something coming out - the departing of the fetus. Since it is<br />
describing the process, and not the result, it could be used to<br />
describe either a live birth or a miscarriage. <i>Shakol</i> which<br />
shows up in Hosea 9:14, is also a verb, but its meaning is to make a<br />
woman barren. Now a barren woman certainly might miscarry, but with<br />
this understanding of the word, it's clear why the writer of Exodus<br />
would not have used it since this miscarriage was caused by an<br />
accident, not by barrenness. And the word <i>nefel</i> is not even a<br />
verb. It's a noun. True, as a noun it is the term for a miscarried<br />
fetus, but the writer wasn't using a noun. He was using a verb to<br />
describe the coming out of the fetus. Thus, if I were describing a man<br />
falling to his death, I would use the verb "to fall" which can be used<br />
for both those who die and those who survive a fall, but to describe<br />
the man himself I would use the word the "fatality." So we can see that<br />
while a novice might mistake a verb for a noun and come to the wrong<br />
conclusions about the original Hebrew words used in the Exodus passage,<br />
a more careful look proves that the words only describe the action of<br />
losing the fetus, not the fetus itself. And that being the case, we<br />
can't use the Hebrew translations to determine if the fetus was alive<br />
or not when it came out - so we are forced to accept that in all<br />
certainly, considering the medical knowledge at the time, the preemie<br />
died. This makes it even more clear that the "tooth for a tooth"<br />
passage refers only to the mother, not to the miscarried fetus. </p><br />
<p>What has been so clearly demonstrated by the passage in Exodus<br />
- the fact that God does not consider a fetus a human person - can also<br />
be seen in a variety of other Bible verses. In Leviticus 27:6 a<br />
monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one<br />
month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a<br />
census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one<br />
month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not<br />
counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God<br />
re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the<br />
interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first<br />
breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant<br />
new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes<br />
him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a<br />
pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of<br />
Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into<br />
consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them,<br />
believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why<br />
would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is<br />
simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a<br />
murder. Period. </p><br />
<p>It is time to stop the one-sided view of abortion being<br />
proclaimed by Christian leaders. These leaders do not -- despite their<br />
claims -- have a biblical mandate for their theologies. It is time to<br />
stop preaching that the Bible contain an undeniable doctrine against<br />
abortion. It is time to stop the anger and hatred being heaped on<br />
abortion doctors and upon women who have abortions, especially when<br />
it's done in the name of a God who has not written such condemnations<br />
in his Bible. It is time to stop, because the act of making a judgment<br />
against people in God's name, when God is not behind the judging, is<br />
nothing short of claiming that our own beliefs are more important than<br />
God's. We must stop, because if we don't, then indeed the very type of<br />
theological argument being used against abortion can be turned around<br />
and used to proclaim that abortion is biblical. </p></div></div></span><br />]]></content:encoded>
	
		</item>
			
					
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			<title>My Point in the Pro-Abortion Issue</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29539</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29539</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:33:07 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29539</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<font size="2">So I think I already remarked about why I really brought up the verses in the Pro-Abortion post.&nbsp; It was mainly to bring up the fact that god of the Bible commanded violence and that this is dangerous (you can read the remarks for an explanation of why).&nbsp; Anyway, the following is writing on the issue of atheists being moral.&nbsp; Often times when people find I am an atheist, they think me and my "kind" are the ones causing problems in society.&nbsp; In fact, religion is most often the cause of death.&nbsp; Usually, Atheists do not kill other people because they believe in god or because atheists are without morals.&nbsp;&nbsp; I do have high morality and respect for humanity.&nbsp; That is why I wanted to say something about the dangerous beliefs in Christianity- mainly in fundamentalism.&nbsp; They are dangerous in all religions that say god is the ultimate authority for good, bad, whatever and that he can command whatever he wants and it will be right.&nbsp; The writing below addresses the problem of good and god.&nbsp; Please feel free to tell me what you think.<br /><br />http://www.reverendatheistar.com/euthyphro_dilemma.htm<br /><br /><b>The Euthyphro Dilemma</b><br /><br /><br />
What is Atheism?<br /><br /><br />
by Douglas E. Krueger<br /><br /><i>How Can Atheists Have Morals?</i><br /><br /><br />
p.26 - 30<br /><br /><b>1. The Euthyphro Dilemma is effective against the view that god is the source of morality.</b><br /><br /><br />
The Euthyphro dilemma, named after some insightful points taken from<br />
Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, shows the failing of the divine command<br />
theory of ethics, which is the view that god is the source of morality.<br />
In the dialogue, the character Socrates, speaking for Plato, meets the<br />
character Euthyphro, who is on his way to court to prosecute his own<br />
father for the murder of a field laborer. For the Greeks, loyalty to<br />
one's relatives was a matter of great importance, so Socrates asks<br />
Euthyphro whether he is certain this act will not be offensive to the<br />
gods; i.e., whether it is immoral. Euthyphro assures Socrates that he<br />
is an expert in matters pertaining to the wishes of the gods, and in<br />
the course of the discussion Euthyphro attempts to defend the divine<br />
theory of ethics. According to this view, we know what is good only<br />
because god tells what is good. However, as Plato asked 2,000 years<br />
ago, does god command what is good because god recognizes what is good,<br />
or is it good because god commands it? That is the dilemma, and each of<br />
the options turns out to be undesirable to the theist.<br /><br /><b>a.  One horn of the dilemma is that what is good is defined by the fact that it's god's will.</b><br /><br /><br />
On the one hand, if something god commands is to be defined as good on<br />
the grounds that it is god's will, then the divine command theorist<br />
must admit that anything can be considered good as long as god commands<br />
it. It would make no sense to ask whether god's commands are good. God<br />
could command someone to bash infants to death, to commit genocide, to<br />
stone people to death (and other atrocities such as we find in the<br />
bible), and such things would by definition be good acts, since god<br />
commanded them.<br /><br /><br />
Would a Christian want to commit to such as system of ethics where anything goes?  The philosopher Bertrand Russell notes:<br /><br /><br />
If the only basis of morality is God's decrees, it follows that they<br />
might just as well have been the opposite of what they are; no reason<br />
except caprice could have prevented the omission of all the "nots" from<br />
the Decalogue.<br /><br /><br />
In other words, the ten commandments (the Decalogue) could have been<br />
just the opposite of what they are and they would, on this view, still<br />
be good because they would still be the will of god and that is the<br />
definition of good. Theists who take this horn of the Euthyphro dilemma<br />
must admit that they really don't have a standard of ethics. What they<br />
have is a standard of obedience -- they will do whatever god commands.<br />
Slavery, however, is not ethics.<br /><br /><br />
It would also make no sense to say that god is good if god is the<br />
standard of goodness. After all, if god is good, in the sense that god<br />
is identical with standard of goodness, then to say "God is good" is<br />
merely to say "God is god," which is an uninformative statement. A<br />
devil worshiper could say the same thing about the being he or she<br />
worships -- "Satan is what he is." The subject and the predicate are<br />
the same object, so the sentence is uninformative. The relationship<br />
between goodness and god loses its meaning if god is the standard of<br />
goodness, so "god is good" would say nothing.<br /><br /><br />
Further, if one would like to know whether a given being is god, there<br />
would be no set of standards with which one could compare that being in<br />
order to identify it as god. For example, if one wants to know how to<br />
recognize a generous person, one could have a list of actions which one<br />
might expect a generous person to perform. The list could include such<br />
things as giving a certain percentage of one's income to the poor,<br />
handing out money when approached by beggars, volunteering at a local<br />
food bank, and other such activities. Similarly, the list could exclude<br />
activities such as obsessively hoarding money, refusing to share any<br />
part of an inheritance with one's siblings, and so on. The list of<br />
criteria is compiled using the concept of generosity. If the person<br />
measures up to the standard, then we can declare that person generous.<br />
In the case of god, however, there can be no such moral standard for<br />
theists who insist who insist that god is the standard. There can be no<br />
list of criteria to identify whether a being is the good god. If god<br />
can can perform or command any act because he sets the standard, what<br />
kinds of acts could possibly be put on an identification list? One<br />
could never say, "An evil being might command this, but god never<br />
would." No action could be required or ruled out with regard to god<br />
since that being could always decide to perform or command the opposite<br />
of any given criterion. After all, god sets the standard, doesn't he?<br />
Without an independent standard of moral or immoral acts against which<br />
to measure god, god could never be identified by his moral standing.<br />
Thus, morally speaking, there would be no way to distinguish being a<br />
slave to an evil demon as opposed to being a slave to god. In both<br />
cases the one doing the commanding could command anything whatsoever<br />
and carrying out that command would be, by definition, a good act. No<br />
act would be considered immoral in and of itself, or good in and of<br />
itself, apart from the issue of whether it has been commanded or<br />
forbidden. Anything from rape to murder would be considered good if it<br />
were commanded by the being who serves as the standard.<br /><br /><br />
No act could be taboo for the being giving commands because that being<br />
who defines goodness would not have any independent standard of<br />
morality by which it could be limited to a certain set of acts. The<br />
being could not be bound by any moral code.<br /><br /><br />
The only immoral act, on this view, is disobedience. The follower would<br />
be committed to a system of blind obedience to a being who cannot be<br />
meaningfully called good. Clearly, this option is undesirable for the<br />
theist.<br /><br /><b>b.  The other horn of dilemma is that god recognizes what is good and then wills what is good.</b><br /><br /><br />
On the other hand, if the theist chooses the other horn of the dilemma,<br />
that god commands that which god recognizes as good, then the theist is<br />
admitting that there is a standard of goodness independent of god, and<br />
is, in fact, admitting that god is not the source of morality. In other<br />
words, if the view is that god in some way "sees" what is good and then<br />
tells us what to do on the basis of that, then god is not the source of<br />
morality, since the act god commands was observed to be good by god,<br />
not made good by god. God becomes, at best, merely an intermediary or a<br />
reporter about ethics, but he is not the source. This option, too, is<br />
undesirable for the theist, since it admits that god is not the source<br />
of ethics, and if god is not the source of ethics then there is nothing<br />
in principle which could show that the atheist cannot have an ethical<br />
system also.<br /><br /><br />
Thus, the theist must choose between admitting that he or she has no<br />
standard of ethics but merely a principle of slavery, or admitting that<br />
god is not the source of morality. Neither option allows for the<br />
possibility that god is the source of a system of ethics. The Euthyphro<br />
dilemma has been conclusive in showing that the divine command theory<br />
of ethics cannot work, and no theist has ever been able to overcome<br />
this strong objection to the view that god is the source of ethics.</font>]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<font size="2">So I think I already remarked about why I really brought up the verses in the Pro-Abortion post.&nbsp; It was mainly to bring up the fact that god of the Bible commanded violence and that this is dangerous (you can read the remarks for an explanation of why).&nbsp; Anyway, the following is writing on the issue of atheists being moral.&nbsp; Often times when people find I am an atheist, they think me and my "kind" are the ones causing problems in society.&nbsp; In fact, religion is most often the cause of death.&nbsp; Usually, Atheists do not kill other people because they believe in god or because atheists are without morals.&nbsp;&nbsp; I do have high morality and respect for humanity.&nbsp; That is why I wanted to say something about the dangerous beliefs in Christianity- mainly in fundamentalism.&nbsp; They are dangerous in all religions that say god is the ultimate authority for good, bad, whatever and that he can command whatever he wants and it will be right.&nbsp; The writing below addresses the problem of good and god.&nbsp; Please feel free to tell me what you think.<br /><br />http://www.reverendatheistar.com/euthyphro_dilemma.htm<br /><br /><b>The Euthyphro Dilemma</b><br /><br /><br />
What is Atheism?<br /><br /><br />
by Douglas E. Krueger<br /><br /><i>How Can Atheists Have Morals?</i><br /><br /><br />
p.26 - 30<br /><br /><b>1. The Euthyphro Dilemma is effective against the view that god is the source of morality.</b><br /><br /><br />
The Euthyphro dilemma, named after some insightful points taken from<br />
Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, shows the failing of the divine command<br />
theory of ethics, which is the view that god is the source of morality.<br />
In the dialogue, the character Socrates, speaking for Plato, meets the<br />
character Euthyphro, who is on his way to court to prosecute his own<br />
father for the murder of a field laborer. For the Greeks, loyalty to<br />
one's relatives was a matter of great importance, so Socrates asks<br />
Euthyphro whether he is certain this act will not be offensive to the<br />
gods; i.e., whether it is immoral. Euthyphro assures Socrates that he<br />
is an expert in matters pertaining to the wishes of the gods, and in<br />
the course of the discussion Euthyphro attempts to defend the divine<br />
theory of ethics. According to this view, we know what is good only<br />
because god tells what is good. However, as Plato asked 2,000 years<br />
ago, does god command what is good because god recognizes what is good,<br />
or is it good because god commands it? That is the dilemma, and each of<br />
the options turns out to be undesirable to the theist.<br /><br /><b>a.  One horn of the dilemma is that what is good is defined by the fact that it's god's will.</b><br /><br /><br />
On the one hand, if something god commands is to be defined as good on<br />
the grounds that it is god's will, then the divine command theorist<br />
must admit that anything can be considered good as long as god commands<br />
it. It would make no sense to ask whether god's commands are good. God<br />
could command someone to bash infants to death, to commit genocide, to<br />
stone people to death (and other atrocities such as we find in the<br />
bible), and such things would by definition be good acts, since god<br />
commanded them.<br /><br /><br />
Would a Christian want to commit to such as system of ethics where anything goes?  The philosopher Bertrand Russell notes:<br /><br /><br />
If the only basis of morality is God's decrees, it follows that they<br />
might just as well have been the opposite of what they are; no reason<br />
except caprice could have prevented the omission of all the "nots" from<br />
the Decalogue.<br /><br /><br />
In other words, the ten commandments (the Decalogue) could have been<br />
just the opposite of what they are and they would, on this view, still<br />
be good because they would still be the will of god and that is the<br />
definition of good. Theists who take this horn of the Euthyphro dilemma<br />
must admit that they really don't have a standard of ethics. What they<br />
have is a standard of obedience -- they will do whatever god commands.<br />
Slavery, however, is not ethics.<br /><br /><br />
It would also make no sense to say that god is good if god is the<br />
standard of goodness. After all, if god is good, in the sense that god<br />
is identical with standard of goodness, then to say "God is good" is<br />
merely to say "God is god," which is an uninformative statement. A<br />
devil worshiper could say the same thing about the being he or she<br />
worships -- "Satan is what he is." The subject and the predicate are<br />
the same object, so the sentence is uninformative. The relationship<br />
between goodness and god loses its meaning if god is the standard of<br />
goodness, so "god is good" would say nothing.<br /><br /><br />
Further, if one would like to know whether a given being is god, there<br />
would be no set of standards with which one could compare that being in<br />
order to identify it as god. For example, if one wants to know how to<br />
recognize a generous person, one could have a list of actions which one<br />
might expect a generous person to perform. The list could include such<br />
things as giving a certain percentage of one's income to the poor,<br />
handing out money when approached by beggars, volunteering at a local<br />
food bank, and other such activities. Similarly, the list could exclude<br />
activities such as obsessively hoarding money, refusing to share any<br />
part of an inheritance with one's siblings, and so on. The list of<br />
criteria is compiled using the concept of generosity. If the person<br />
measures up to the standard, then we can declare that person generous.<br />
In the case of god, however, there can be no such moral standard for<br />
theists who insist who insist that god is the standard. There can be no<br />
list of criteria to identify whether a being is the good god. If god<br />
can can perform or command any act because he sets the standard, what<br />
kinds of acts could possibly be put on an identification list? One<br />
could never say, "An evil being might command this, but god never<br />
would." No action could be required or ruled out with regard to god<br />
since that being could always decide to perform or command the opposite<br />
of any given criterion. After all, god sets the standard, doesn't he?<br />
Without an independent standard of moral or immoral acts against which<br />
to measure god, god could never be identified by his moral standing.<br />
Thus, morally speaking, there would be no way to distinguish being a<br />
slave to an evil demon as opposed to being a slave to god. In both<br />
cases the one doing the commanding could command anything whatsoever<br />
and carrying out that command would be, by definition, a good act. No<br />
act would be considered immoral in and of itself, or good in and of<br />
itself, apart from the issue of whether it has been commanded or<br />
forbidden. Anything from rape to murder would be considered good if it<br />
were commanded by the being who serves as the standard.<br /><br /><br />
No act could be taboo for the being giving commands because that being<br />
who defines goodness would not have any independent standard of<br />
morality by which it could be limited to a certain set of acts. The<br />
being could not be bound by any moral code.<br /><br /><br />
The only immoral act, on this view, is disobedience. The follower would<br />
be committed to a system of blind obedience to a being who cannot be<br />
meaningfully called good. Clearly, this option is undesirable for the<br />
theist.<br /><br /><b>b.  The other horn of dilemma is that god recognizes what is good and then wills what is good.</b><br /><br /><br />
On the other hand, if the theist chooses the other horn of the dilemma,<br />
that god commands that which god recognizes as good, then the theist is<br />
admitting that there is a standard of goodness independent of god, and<br />
is, in fact, admitting that god is not the source of morality. In other<br />
words, if the view is that god in some way "sees" what is good and then<br />
tells us what to do on the basis of that, then god is not the source of<br />
morality, since the act god commands was observed to be good by god,<br />
not made good by god. God becomes, at best, merely an intermediary or a<br />
reporter about ethics, but he is not the source. This option, too, is<br />
undesirable for the theist, since it admits that god is not the source<br />
of ethics, and if god is not the source of ethics then there is nothing<br />
in principle which could show that the atheist cannot have an ethical<br />
system also.<br /><br /><br />
Thus, the theist must choose between admitting that he or she has no<br />
standard of ethics but merely a principle of slavery, or admitting that<br />
god is not the source of morality. Neither option allows for the<br />
possibility that god is the source of a system of ethics. The Euthyphro<br />
dilemma has been conclusive in showing that the divine command theory<br />
of ethics cannot work, and no theist has ever been able to overcome<br />
this strong objection to the view that god is the source of ethics.</font>]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>God is Pro-Abortion</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29513</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29513</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 09:09:52 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/29513</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[...according to the Bible anyway....check it out:<br /><br />1 Samuel 15:1-3 (NIV) - <span class="sup" id="en-NIV-7562" />"Samuel said to Saul, "I am<br />
the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so<br />
listen now to the message from the LORD.<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-7563" /><br />
This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for<br />
what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from<br />
Egypt.&nbsp;<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-7564" /> Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men<br />
and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'<br />
""<br /><br /><br />Isaiah 13<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17920">:13-16 (NIV) -</span> "Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and the earth will shake from its place <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in the day of his burning anger. <br />
<p>&nbsp;<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17921">14</span> Like a hunted gazelle, <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; like sheep without a shepherd, <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; each will return to his own people, <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; each will flee to his native land. </p><br />
<p>&nbsp;<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17922">15</span> Whoever is captured will be thrust through; <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; all who are caught will fall by the sword. </p><br />
<p>&nbsp;<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17923">16</span> Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished." </p><br /><br />
<h3><font size="3"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Isaiah 13:18 </span><strong style="font-weight: normal;">(NIV)</strong><span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17925" style="font-weight: normal;"> - 18</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> Their bows will strike down the young men;</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> nor will they look with compassion on children.</span></font><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span><font size="3" style="font-weight: normal;">They will have no mercy on infants.</font></h3><br /><br /><br />
<h3><font size="3"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - "The people of Samaria must bear<span style="font-weight: bold;" /></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."</span></font><br /></h3> <br /><br />Hosea 13:16 (King James) "Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God. <br />They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces,  and their pregnant women ripped open."<br />]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[...according to the Bible anyway....check it out:<br /><br />1 Samuel 15:1-3 (NIV) - <span class="sup" id="en-NIV-7562" />"Samuel said to Saul, "I am<br />
the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so<br />
listen now to the message from the LORD.<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-7563" /><br />
This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for<br />
what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from<br />
Egypt.&nbsp;<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-7564" /> Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men<br />
and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'<br />
""<br /><br /><br />Isaiah 13<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17920">:13-16 (NIV) -</span> "Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and the earth will shake from its place <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in the day of his burning anger. <br />
<p>&nbsp;<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17921">14</span> Like a hunted gazelle, <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; like sheep without a shepherd, <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; each will return to his own people, <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; each will flee to his native land. </p><br />
<p>&nbsp;<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17922">15</span> Whoever is captured will be thrust through; <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; all who are caught will fall by the sword. </p><br />
<p>&nbsp;<span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17923">16</span> Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; <br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished." </p><br /><br />
<h3><font size="3"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Isaiah 13:18 </span><strong style="font-weight: normal;">(NIV)</strong><span class="sup" id="en-NIV-17925" style="font-weight: normal;"> - 18</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> Their bows will strike down the young men;</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> nor will they look with compassion on children.</span></font><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span><font size="3" style="font-weight: normal;">They will have no mercy on infants.</font></h3><br /><br /><br />
<h3><font size="3"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - "The people of Samaria must bear<span style="font-weight: bold;" /></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."</span></font><br /></h3> <br /><br />Hosea 13:16 (King James) "Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God. <br />They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces,  and their pregnant women ripped open."<br />]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>Man I Take too Many Pictures...</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28873</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28873</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 18:19:32 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28873</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[but I just love him!&nbsp; <br /><br />This is Alden at the springs yesterday.&nbsp; His daddy was painting.&nbsp; I was supposed to be studying, but, well, you can see what I was doing!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/5fcca1f7d4d35029ec2e900c1477be175.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/38a05a14d5773192f6f5282dff69383b5.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/80018ea480a682a9305284b33bbc6cb3b.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/80a0143d668626ae33f3028e1d3ee6fc5.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/0cc86b1dd7745898ad57e97989b887389.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br />]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[but I just love him!&nbsp; <br /><br />This is Alden at the springs yesterday.&nbsp; His daddy was painting.&nbsp; I was supposed to be studying, but, well, you can see what I was doing!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/5fcca1f7d4d35029ec2e900c1477be175.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/38a05a14d5773192f6f5282dff69383b5.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/80018ea480a682a9305284b33bbc6cb3b.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/80a0143d668626ae33f3028e1d3ee6fc5.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/0cc86b1dd7745898ad57e97989b887389.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br />]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>The Baby</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28797</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28797</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:27:51 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28797</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/df8cac5cfabb5eb0e421f84898dc65a00.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/2df27a0cdddb1a0cefb8c4b6045625b99.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/409c5ba302447032fbdb3a9db12eef38f.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/c9b90707ae6ef97e2bb7750bca885ac79.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/5123bd828c4e4c5d4f03ec49cb3eccf84.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" />]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/df8cac5cfabb5eb0e421f84898dc65a00.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/2df27a0cdddb1a0cefb8c4b6045625b99.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/409c5ba302447032fbdb3a9db12eef38f.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/c9b90707ae6ef97e2bb7750bca885ac79.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/5123bd828c4e4c5d4f03ec49cb3eccf84.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" />]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>Hard to manage</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28757</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28757</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:10:19 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28757</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[School and babies don't mesh well.&nbsp; I am getting no sleep which also harms concentration.&nbsp; It's really hard to read when your eyes are always slowly forcing their way shut.&nbsp; And I'm only taking 9 hours online.<br /><br />I should have taken a semester off.<br /><br />Thanks a lot, DAD.<br /><br />Sheesh.<br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/986c976f5867efa0cd92d8f661542f7fc.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br />]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[School and babies don't mesh well.&nbsp; I am getting no sleep which also harms concentration.&nbsp; It's really hard to read when your eyes are always slowly forcing their way shut.&nbsp; And I'm only taking 9 hours online.<br /><br />I should have taken a semester off.<br /><br />Thanks a lot, DAD.<br /><br />Sheesh.<br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/986c976f5867efa0cd92d8f661542f7fc.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br />]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>Time for Pictures!</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28671</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28671</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 18:37:02 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/28671</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[So Alden is almost 8 weeks old now!&nbsp; He is growing fast.&nbsp; He still doesn't sleep through the night.&nbsp; He eats about every three hours.&nbsp; He is so long and thick (not really fat though).&nbsp; He loves his seat with toys he can now hit and touch.&nbsp; He loves his daddy's guitar playing.&nbsp; And he loves interrupting things (especially my school work).&nbsp; <br /><br /><br />
<div style="text-align: center;"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">But we still love him.<br />Here he is:<br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/a56056e858a1675213f794ca5d5a1e229.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/97e79b92d506e20f7088d7c178b3f1aed.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/de24c22d53b0f01c76fc5c9c67122075e.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/4b2286c1b1f2f647868077f303662bdbd.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/ba07c413e7a15154b43e6dd83933fb61b.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/bc68bb11088c92f7b8c12deb373744c66.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/cf91cc37237224ec57b0f192022317b4b.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/986c976f5867efa0cd92d8f661542f7fc.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/7fea08bbd65f0eb0f9f47f14a2616cb32.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/6563411f7019a299c620ce2091a3eee00.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/0c008c1bb59ba5a03e7389f55e855d14f.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/8dd060bd8aa49597e6b55c1d8fdd96479.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/d764f6a78d240ae02d22422129cbdc010.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/305e3091202d7260821fecfd8c09db27b.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/7b9f0f3da0ac3a9a5c86e94eda17bff82.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/5895a1fa8f39d8610b783603554794441.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br /><br />And I probably missed some, but they are all over there to your right.<br /></span></div>]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[So Alden is almost 8 weeks old now!&nbsp; He is growing fast.&nbsp; He still doesn't sleep through the night.&nbsp; He eats about every three hours.&nbsp; He is so long and thick (not really fat though).&nbsp; He loves his seat with toys he can now hit and touch.&nbsp; He loves his daddy's guitar playing.&nbsp; And he loves interrupting things (especially my school work).&nbsp; <br /><br /><br />
<div style="text-align: center;"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">But we still love him.<br />Here he is:<br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/a56056e858a1675213f794ca5d5a1e229.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/97e79b92d506e20f7088d7c178b3f1aed.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/de24c22d53b0f01c76fc5c9c67122075e.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/4b2286c1b1f2f647868077f303662bdbd.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/ba07c413e7a15154b43e6dd83933fb61b.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/bc68bb11088c92f7b8c12deb373744c66.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/cf91cc37237224ec57b0f192022317b4b.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/986c976f5867efa0cd92d8f661542f7fc.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/7fea08bbd65f0eb0f9f47f14a2616cb32.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/6563411f7019a299c620ce2091a3eee00.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/0c008c1bb59ba5a03e7389f55e855d14f.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/8dd060bd8aa49597e6b55c1d8fdd96479.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/d764f6a78d240ae02d22422129cbdc010.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/305e3091202d7260821fecfd8c09db27b.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/7b9f0f3da0ac3a9a5c86e94eda17bff82.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/5895a1fa8f39d8610b783603554794441.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br /><br />And I probably missed some, but they are all over there to your right.<br /></span></div>]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>Short and Sweet</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/27840</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/27840</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:57:24 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/27840</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; At some point I might post my hugely long and horrid birth experience, but for now I will just say that the baby is here!<br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/491eaf9ddd75064ea16029b4b83a9a439.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br />Currie Alden Dail V (Alden) was born July 19th at 1 in the morning after around 24 hours of labor with 3 hours of pushing.&nbsp; He was 9 lbs. 3 oz. and 21 inches!&nbsp; He is doing pretty well, though I think he might be getting colicky.&nbsp; That would be par for the course.&nbsp; I was in the hospital a week total and am still slowly recovering.&nbsp; I am starting to feel like visitors if anyone wants to stop by.&nbsp; Mostly, Joey and I are just glad that he is here and trying to adapt to parenthood!&nbsp; I think we like it, at least most of the time.&nbsp; I might upload some pictures soon, but the really good ones that Joey's dad took are not available yet.&nbsp; They are the ones I really want to show.<br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/6325b06cc3fd09cb3d7397de0a1d319d9.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/6da473acd54a66c0a732879cf2eb5a4fd.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/d8b294e61c610894073116db269b7b5a0.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/4bf20226c77e8043f6522cc0b3ae5e1ef.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br />Anyway, that's that.<br />]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; At some point I might post my hugely long and horrid birth experience, but for now I will just say that the baby is here!<br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/491eaf9ddd75064ea16029b4b83a9a439.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br />Currie Alden Dail V (Alden) was born July 19th at 1 in the morning after around 24 hours of labor with 3 hours of pushing.&nbsp; He was 9 lbs. 3 oz. and 21 inches!&nbsp; He is doing pretty well, though I think he might be getting colicky.&nbsp; That would be par for the course.&nbsp; I was in the hospital a week total and am still slowly recovering.&nbsp; I am starting to feel like visitors if anyone wants to stop by.&nbsp; Mostly, Joey and I are just glad that he is here and trying to adapt to parenthood!&nbsp; I think we like it, at least most of the time.&nbsp; I might upload some pictures soon, but the really good ones that Joey's dad took are not available yet.&nbsp; They are the ones I really want to show.<br /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/6325b06cc3fd09cb3d7397de0a1d319d9.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/6da473acd54a66c0a732879cf2eb5a4fd.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/d8b294e61c610894073116db269b7b5a0.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><img src="http://www.phusebox.net/users/photos/mids/4bf20226c77e8043f6522cc0b3ae5e1ef.jpg" alt="" class="photo_border" /><br />Anyway, that's that.<br />]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>Oi</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25287</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25287</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 10:49:58 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25287</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[So being pregnant at 9 months is just as bad as being pregnant in the first trimester.&nbsp; You get more sick again.&nbsp; <br /><br />I really think that in sex education classes in school they should go through a whole section on what pregnancy actually does to a person's body.&nbsp; I think if they did this, it would be a better deterent for frivilous sex escapades than just saying "you could get pregnant."<br /><br />I certainly would have used more caution.<br />]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[So being pregnant at 9 months is just as bad as being pregnant in the first trimester.&nbsp; You get more sick again.&nbsp; <br /><br />I really think that in sex education classes in school they should go through a whole section on what pregnancy actually does to a person's body.&nbsp; I think if they did this, it would be a better deterent for frivilous sex escapades than just saying "you could get pregnant."<br /><br />I certainly would have used more caution.<br />]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>I Think I Should Make a Note</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25166</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25166</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:24:41 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25166</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Alright.&nbsp; I think I should say something- sort of as a disclaimer, more as an explanation since people can't read my mind.</p><br />
<p></p><br />
<p>Often on Phusebox I will see posts that attract my attention.&nbsp; I will comment on them if I feel I have something worthwhile to say.&nbsp; Sometimes this is just a word of encouragement to someone that I don't even know, other times it is a more serious and involved comment.&nbsp; I attempt, if I feel I can, to offer my perspective to any problems presented on the blogs of any certain individual.&nbsp; Here is where I think I need to explain...</p><br />
<p>When I offer my advice or my opinion, I personally understand it to be just that- mine.&nbsp; I don't expect for anyone to change their life or their minds based on what I say.&nbsp; I do not want to convert anyone to my beliefs because I strongly believe that beliefs are only personal and are different for each individual.&nbsp; I do however, in my commenting, hope to challenge the individual to look at their beliefs about everything and know what and why they believe what they do.&nbsp; If they don't know what they think, I am challenging them to figure it out.&nbsp; I think it is important to think about all the issues in one's life and decide what one thinks using the tools one has available to make decisions in this area.&nbsp; I hope to challenge people to not be spoon-fed ideas or information but to seek out their own answers.&nbsp; I think this makes a stronger individual.&nbsp; I feel it to be of utmost importance to present this challenge whenever possible to help people more clearly formulate their ideas for the betterment of themselves.&nbsp; Again, I do this only out of the love I have to see people grow, mature, and develop their ideas and themselves.&nbsp; I hope to be a counselor one day and continue this on a larger scale.&nbsp; </p><br />
<p></p><br />
<p>I hope this clears up any misconceptions people might have about my motives on phusebox.&nbsp; I have noticed that most people on here probably do not think anywhere near the way I do, and that is more than okay.&nbsp; I do respect those differences when they are well-formulated.&nbsp; I feel it is good, also, to present a different side to individuals when any issue comes up.&nbsp; I will offer that if I feel knowledgeable about the subject and feel I have something worthwhile to say.&nbsp; Please understand this.</p><br />
<p align="center"><font color="#00cccc">I come in peace :)</font></p>]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alright.&nbsp; I think I should say something- sort of as a disclaimer, more as an explanation since people can't read my mind.</p><br />
<p></p><br />
<p>Often on Phusebox I will see posts that attract my attention.&nbsp; I will comment on them if I feel I have something worthwhile to say.&nbsp; Sometimes this is just a word of encouragement to someone that I don't even know, other times it is a more serious and involved comment.&nbsp; I attempt, if I feel I can, to offer my perspective to any problems presented on the blogs of any certain individual.&nbsp; Here is where I think I need to explain...</p><br />
<p>When I offer my advice or my opinion, I personally understand it to be just that- mine.&nbsp; I don't expect for anyone to change their life or their minds based on what I say.&nbsp; I do not want to convert anyone to my beliefs because I strongly believe that beliefs are only personal and are different for each individual.&nbsp; I do however, in my commenting, hope to challenge the individual to look at their beliefs about everything and know what and why they believe what they do.&nbsp; If they don't know what they think, I am challenging them to figure it out.&nbsp; I think it is important to think about all the issues in one's life and decide what one thinks using the tools one has available to make decisions in this area.&nbsp; I hope to challenge people to not be spoon-fed ideas or information but to seek out their own answers.&nbsp; I think this makes a stronger individual.&nbsp; I feel it to be of utmost importance to present this challenge whenever possible to help people more clearly formulate their ideas for the betterment of themselves.&nbsp; Again, I do this only out of the love I have to see people grow, mature, and develop their ideas and themselves.&nbsp; I hope to be a counselor one day and continue this on a larger scale.&nbsp; </p><br />
<p></p><br />
<p>I hope this clears up any misconceptions people might have about my motives on phusebox.&nbsp; I have noticed that most people on here probably do not think anywhere near the way I do, and that is more than okay.&nbsp; I do respect those differences when they are well-formulated.&nbsp; I feel it is good, also, to present a different side to individuals when any issue comes up.&nbsp; I will offer that if I feel knowledgeable about the subject and feel I have something worthwhile to say.&nbsp; Please understand this.</p><br />
<p align="center"><font color="#00cccc">I come in peace :)</font></p>]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>a thought</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25130</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25130</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:45:18 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25130</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<div style="text-align: center;"><br /><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">"anyone who would give up </span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">freedom</span><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);"> for </span><span style="text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">security</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);" /><br style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);" /><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 0);">deserves</span> </span><span style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">neither</span><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">."</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);" /><br style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);" /><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">-Benjamin Franklin</span><br /><br />
</div>]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="text-align: center;"><br /><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">"anyone who would give up </span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">freedom</span><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);"> for </span><span style="text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">security</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);" /><br style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);" /><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);"><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 0);">deserves</span> </span><span style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">neither</span><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">."</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);" /><br style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);" /><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">-Benjamin Franklin</span><br /><br />
</div>]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title></title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25088</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25088</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 15:45:55 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25088</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<div style="text-align: center;"><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 0);"><br /><br /><br /><br />...save me from my boredom...</span><br /></div><br />
<div style="text-align: center;"><br />
</div>]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="text-align: center;"><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 0);"><br /><br /><br /><br />...save me from my boredom...</span><br /></div><br />
<div style="text-align: center;"><br />
</div>]]></content:encoded>
	
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			<title>It's hard to be happy</title>
			<link>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25014</link>
			<comments>http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25014</comments>
	
			<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:59:22 -0500</pubDate>
			<dc:creator>Karissa Krapf</dc:creator>
			
			<category><![CDATA[PhhuseBox]]></category>
	
			<category><![CDATA[Personal]]></category>
	
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phusebox.net/user/yourcandytears/thoughts/view/25014</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[<span style="color: rgb(0, 153, 0);">And I feel so bad for not being elated that the baby is coming soon.&nbsp; I am just very sick from the pregnancy and very uncomfortable.&nbsp; I am trapped at home for the most part, alone because Joey is at work.&nbsp; I can't leave because of my panic attacks, and when I can leave I only feel comfortable going to my parents' house.&nbsp; I was enjoying swimming last week at my parents' house, but this week it's been all rainy in the afternoons.&nbsp; I'm generally too sick to get out before noon.<br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">I'm looking out the sliding doors of our apartment and the sky is dark again.&nbsp; It seems that's just par for the course.&nbsp; My life has become pathetic due to all this sickness.&nbsp; I just can't kick it.&nbsp; Joey constantly reminds me that I am pregnant, and it will all be over soon.&nbsp; That isn't comforting.&nbsp; Also, after I have the baby it will still take about 3 months to get back to normal.&nbsp; How am I going to take care of Alden when I am sick all the time?&nbsp; I don't know how that will work out.&nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 102, 0);">I read everyone's myspaces, facebooks, phuseboxes, etc., and I see them being active and having fun with their lives.&nbsp; That was me about 7 months ago before this shit storm.&nbsp; And it has been so dissapointing.&nbsp; First, I was too sick to work anymore.&nbsp; Second, I was too sick to go to school.&nbsp; Third, I had to medically withdraw from school- something I love doing.&nbsp; Fourth, I became stuck in the house unless Joey can go somewhere with me.&nbsp; Fifth, I developed a fear of going to most places even when Joey is with me.&nbsp; Sixth, I continue getting more sick and more uncomfortable, more trapped and more alone.&nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(153, 51, 153);">It's sad because this is not the usual state of things for me.&nbsp; I am outgoing and love to be doing things to improve my life and to help those around me.&nbsp; I am now incapacitated to do much of anything.&nbsp; Joey tells me all pregnant women, or most, are like this in their last trimester, but I don't care.&nbsp; I don't want to sit around.&nbsp; It is so boring, and it makes me move towards depression.&nbsp; I can't take care of Joey or do much for him.&nbsp; We can't go out on dates.&nbsp; I don't feel like having people over.&nbsp; I don't even feel comfortable talking to people on the phone.<br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">My life has just gotten ridiculous here lately.&nbsp; I hope it stops getting worse at least.&nbsp; It'd be nice if things could start to get better.&nbsp; If I could just feel better I could get a handle on my anxious and depressive thoughts.&nbsp; But for now, I suppose I just have to wait out the storm.</span><br /></span></span></span></span>]]></description>
	
				<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span style="color: rgb(0, 153, 0);">And I feel so bad for not being elated that the baby is coming soon.&nbsp; I am just very sick from the pregnancy and very uncomfortable.&nbsp; I am trapped at home for the most part, alone because Joey is at work.&nbsp; I can't leave because of my panic attacks, and when I can leave I only feel comfortable going to my parents' house.&nbsp; I was enjoying swimming last week at my parents' house, but this week it's been all rainy in the afternoons.&nbsp; I'm generally too sick to get out before noon.<br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(51, 102, 255);">I'm looking out the sliding doors of our apartment and the sky is dark again.&nbsp; It seems that's just par for the course.&nbsp; My life has become pathetic due to all this sickness.&nbsp; I just can't kick it.&nbsp; Joey constantly reminds me that I am pregnant, and it will all be over soon.&nbsp; That isn't comforting.&nbsp; Also, after I have the baby it will still take about 3 months to get back to normal.&nbsp; How am I going to take care of Alden when I am sick all the time?&nbsp; I don't know how that will work out.&nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 102, 0);">I read everyone's myspaces, facebooks, phuseboxes, etc., and I see them being active and having fun with their lives.&nbsp; That was me about 7 months ago before this shit storm.&nbsp; And it has been so dissapointing.&nbsp; First, I was too sick to work anymore.&nbsp; Second, I was too sick to go to school.&nbsp; Third, I had to medically withdraw from school- something I love doing.&nbsp; Fourth, I became stuck in the house unless Joey can go somewhere with me.&nbsp; Fifth, I developed a fear of going to most places even when Joey is with me.&nbsp; Sixth, I continue getting more sick and more uncomfortable, more trapped and more alone.&nbsp; <br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(153, 51, 153);">It's sad because this is not the usual state of things for me.&nbsp; I am outgoing and love to be doing things to improve my life and to help those around me.&nbsp; I am now incapacitated to do much of anything.&nbsp; Joey tells me all pregnant women, or most, are like this in their last trimester, but I don't care.&nbsp; I don't want to sit around.&nbsp; It is so boring, and it makes me move towards depression.&nbsp; I can't take care of Joey or do much for him.&nbsp; We can't go out on dates.&nbsp; I don't feel like having people over.&nbsp; I don't even feel comfortable talking to people on the phone.<br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">My life has just gotten ridiculous here lately.&nbsp; I hope it stops getting worse at least.&nbsp; It'd be nice if things could start to get better.&nbsp; If I could just feel better I could get a handle o